it was not exactly bill clinton in 1996 saying the era of big government is over, but he was using the term big government in a bad way. joining me is karen, a current political msnbc analyst. >> democrats have been losing this argument about big versus small argument, what's effective and ineffective, smart versus snot. think about the child care education. you could make the argument that is smart. how we do spending. i hope that part of the audience for that were democrats in congress, they are going to have to get a lot smarter on how they have this fight and frame this discussion if they are going to win. >> when mark rubio gave his criticism saying that president obama is a straw man, and that big government is the reason we have the problems we have. was he engaging in the last fight or disagreeing with president obama? >> he was fighting the last fight. they think that wins. but i would push back. budget cuts, are they any more effective or smarter? i don't think so. that is the frame to say what are going to be the smart investments for the future that make sense for the count